THE conversation with Mick Winters goes as it normally does, with plenty of colour and insight and right-angled branches, as the rapid line of patter keeps up with a mind that one suspects never stops generating ideas. No surprise he is a light sleeper.

The writer is sitting in the car park at Listowel on the evening of the Guinness Kerry National. Winters is completing the evening routine around the yard on the other end of the line.

The lack of rain prevented Chatham Street Lad taking his place in the Harvest Festival feature earlier that day.

He had been hoping to have a lot more runners with chances in Listowel but drying ground kept them, and him, in Kanturk for most of the week.

Donie Sheahan’s name comes up. Winters had trained For Bill to win 11 times for the Lord of Listowel, or King of Kerry if you prefer, three of those blacktype successes. A Kerry, East Kerry and Dr Crokes GAA legend, having moved to Killarney from his native town many years ago, Sheahan shared a birthday – April 4th, 1926 – with Queen Elizabeth II. They exchanged birthday greetings annually.

Winters had hoped to get a photo of Donie leading in For Bill to the Queen on his two visits to Cheltenham with Chatham Street Lad but Covid-19 restrictions put paid to that.

So he is telling me that Donie had gotten word to him just a couple of days previously to call over, knowing, of course, that he was in the neighbourhood for the racing in the 95-year-old’s home town on Monday.

It was, Winters says, a lovely visit but he has the notion that Donie wanted to catch up one last time, that a long, rich life might be coming to an end.

I had a missed call from the north Cork trainer the next morning. In the voicemail, he let me know that Donie had passed away overnight.

The king is dead. Long live the king.

“He was a great man,” said Winters Thursday evening. “He lived a century, through world wars and everything. He didn’t hide anything. He was very open and he enjoyed the racing. I wonder did anybody notify the Queen of England? They communicated every year on their birthday. Surely someone would do her the courtesy of telling her of his demise. We’ll make sure of it.

“I went to visit him and he livened up, he’d a big hearty laugh, mouth wide open, genuine laugh and the hat off. It was the same laugh. It was very good. We had great times.”

Compassionate

We all know Winters loves the craic, but what has become very evident in a couple of conversations in the last few years is that he is a man of the people, wonderfully compassionate.

In the past, he has spoken of his concern for people’s mental health, and in particular that of fellow trainers, and to that end, the announcement that the IHRB are rolling out the Leafyard wellness app, that has proven such a hit with jockeys, to the conditioners as well, is very welcome.

Today, he is focussed on what racing can do to encourage the youth and contribute to the wider world.

In the first category, he is aghast at the 14-day suspension received by Ambrose McCurtin for what most observers considered a very good ride on No Memory at Listowel last Sunday and is doing as much as he can in terms of employing young staff. At present he is looking at acquiring a suitable horse for Abbie Fitzgibbon – sister of Cork hurling star Darragh – so she can gain further experience in point-to-points.

“There’s pony racing in Ballybunion (tomorrow) which is great for the young lads coming through. It will be great to give young fellas the spins. There’ll be a big gang Sunday and they got a lot of fellas to sponsor the races.

“Watching the racing now, there’s one thing you’d notice. It’s all fellas my age. Long term it’s a problem. The last day that Doldido won in Galway, there were a gang of students around alright and we’d good craic with them and hopefully in five or six years’ time some few of them will come on.

“But in racing now, to give Ambrose McCurtin 14 days, to a man trying to make a living. The likes of Donie McInerney, they’ve lost their claim and they’re not able to do the lighter weights; they have to try and make a system that they can maybe ride 10 winners with a 4lb claim again or something like that. Because it’s fierce hard to get staff. There’s no bother getting horses. You need to be looking after all these fellas, for all the different gangs in racing.

“Look at the likes of Finny Maguire there now. I have to try and get him something at this stage. Even for ourselves (as a family, with Maguire a nephew). But we’ve Chris Donovan in with us and he’s claiming seven and he’s never lost a race for us. Maxine (O’Sullivan) is the go-to woman. But you have to gather them all now and we’re trying to get a horse for Abbie.

“You need everybody in the industry. But when you’ve jockeys who lose their claims fast and nothing is happening, they have a blank season or two gone, you could give them back 4lb.

“I also think you could pay trainers to keep certain kind of horses that would be suitable for younger riders. At the moment, you’ve to ride in 20 bumpers to be allowed to ride in a hurdle. That makes it very hard to get experience for ordinary riders. Could Horse Racing Ireland put in a few lads on the Curragh training, some of these instructors, put them training a few of the older horses that come back to the Open Lightweights for the point-to-points?”

Having invested heavily in the gallops and jumps on the property owned by his late Uncle Teddy, who died aged 93 last year, is still considering how he develops his operation now.

“We’ll see how big we’ll grow or what we’ll do. Doesn’t John Kiely run a small, handy operation? But there’s young lads coming through, you wouldn’t know. My own lad (Timmy) has improved a lot. He was going to college and then he wasn’t going back and I said he’d have to get out of bed and he’s still not great at that! But in the evening, he’ll cover and he’s doing jobs away. Laurie has a good job in Cork but she might come back and build in the new place.

“We have 20 stables and you’d be fretting a bit. I’d hate having a horse over and above but maybe you’d want a lot more. We’ve great young staff. But in the winter, it’s very competitive and in the summer then you’re taking a chance on the ground. And you have to think of the welfare of the horse.”

Stable star

Chatham Street Lad is the stable star, a Caspian Caviar Gold Cup winner at Cheltenham last December, who was subsequently fourth in the Marsh Novices’ Chase. His Grade 3 triumph over an extended three miles on heavy ground at Limerick, just 10 days later, gave a hint of where his true strengths lie, however.

“We were bullish three weeks ago, the form was there. The form has dipped a bit but that might be a good thing, it’s a long year. He has an entry made for Limerick (the Munster National on October 10th) now. But when you haven’t many good horses, you have to be careful.

“With what he showed in Limerick, wouldn’t you be half-tempted to think the ground might be softening in Cheltenham again come November, that there might be a suitable race for him there again.

“When you get to my age now, I’m 64, say you’d the likes of Chatham Street Lad and he was progressing well and was showing the same stamina at a little higher level, and you got fierce bad weather, wouldn’t you always want to be inside the Gold Cup rather than a shorter race?

“I said the ground was fine for him at Cheltenham but what I meant was that it was safe, but it suited the fast horses. We still got a great run.

“Sayce Gold is not in long, Trevor Hemmings brings them in at the end of August. In the novice season for a mare, there mightn’t be as many easier opportunities but she’d want to be nearly ready to go when the ground gets soft. She’s a good mare. She got a pop of a hurdle to get her started but I’d say if we’re going to go anywhere in the lorry now, we’ll throw her in and hurry her up a small bit.

“She’s a grand, big, bould kind of a mare. She’s one there now, if you went into the river there and you were walking up along, if she decides to go out, you just go with her. She has her own notion but she’s grand. She was a very good jumper of a hurdle so you’d be saying with a bit of luck, she’d be competitive in the best of the mares’ novices. She’s a grand, big, scopey jumper and had run in four point-to-points when we got her, so that was the schooling done.”

It is around now he tells you about calling into Donie and from that kindness, comes another thought, that occurred as he got lost in a momentary reverie while drinking tea during that visit.

“I’d be looking out the window, daydreaming, looking at stuff. But I was looking at people, going out to fancy coffee shops, coming out and eating and we’re all at it. The lifestyle that we all have, going racing and doing everything else, we surely have a responsibility to worry about the rest.

“I think we have to do something in racing. We can have a good time, be jumping around and all that, but we’ve two dogs here and they’re fat as fools. We’re living in fantasy land. The real world is very different.

“So, if I won the Kerry National, I wouldn’t mind giving five grand out of it if I thought it would start some kind of fund or collection to give to people struggling in Third World countries. I think racing could lead the way on it in a big way.

“Like, look at the Gordon Elliott thing, it was farcical… If I went out foreign on holidays, and there’s people starving, they’re dying alongside me. In the old days, you’d donate something. Nowadays people step over ‘em and there’s no notice in the world, though you’re seeing it on television and everything. So is our lifestyle now, is it nearly too much?

“Pat Smullen did a good thing, and it was great for Cancer (Trials Ireland) and that’s there but you could maybe put something alongside it. If that money was there for Trócaire or somebody like that. I think we should all be thinking of something. Whether you’re winning one race or 10 races, when your time is up, wouldn’t it be great to say, ‘Fuck it, we’d a great time, but at least we didn’t forget people.’”

It would.