How did you get involved with racing?

My uncle, James Gough, has had horses long before I was around. He used to have horses with Joanna Morgan. He had a farm in Ballivor and he’d bring my brother and I down and that’s where we learned to ride. He ended up buying a racing stables and put Stephen Mahon in it to train all of his horses. They had a dispute and James needed somebody to get their licence, so I was pushed forward with no major interest in being a trainer. It all snowballed from there. We had plenty of winners but it wasn’t an easy life, it’s a hard game for anybody and I don’t envy other trainers at all.

James comes racing all the time, just the last six weeks he hasn’t been well. He’s missed two winners and he’s chomping at the bit to get back! We’ll see when he makes another appearance. Leading in winners and chatting to people at the races is better than any medicine the doctors are giving him at the moment, so that’s our aim, to keep coming up with winners no matter how low of a grade the race is. It’s the only thing that he wants to do.

You have a good eye for spotting horses in claimers.

My brother Stephen does a lot of it as well. A lot of people go into it looking for stars but, short of Sceptical, we know our level and we’re happy enough to compete at that level. We look for horses that might improve for a change of scenery, or if we felt they were maybe running over the wrong trip. We’re always prepared to take a chance and we don’t overspend on them. If they don’t work out we don’t linger paying training fees for them. We’ll either find them a home outside of racing or try to find a new owner for them. When you’re spending your own money rather then other owners’ money, we don’t have the same responsibility and we’re not under as much pressure for things to work out.

If you’re buying the right horses at the right end of the handicap, it helps massively. We never got into yearlings or store horses, they’re long-term jobs. If someone wants to spend €100,000 or more on a yearling, I’d be much happier picking it up as a three-year-old when it’s already broken, gelded, and named with that money already put into it. You definitely live the dream when you have a yearling, hoping that they turn into something. When we buy horses in claimers, the chances of them turning into stars are non-existent, but we’re not in it to find stars.

How did you get into partnership with Denis Hogan?

Denis used to ride for me when I was training years ago. I had to give up the first time as my wife got a brain tumour and I needed to spend more time with my family. We had stopped using Denis for a while, but no matter if he was riding for us or not, he’d never pass us without stopping to have a chat. He was always very pleasant. We sent him a horse, and that rolled into two and snowballed from there.

We came across Sceptical together and that was absolutely brilliant. It created memories that will always live with us. In the space of five months, we’ve had 13 winners which is no mean feat. We don’t overspend and we’ve sent Denis plenty of horses that have issues so he does well with them.

When Sceptical died it left us unsure of how to feel about being involved with the sport anymore. I wasn’t pushed at all and I had no real interest. James went the opposite way and bought too many horses to try and replace him. There were too many horses to have down with Denis so I got landed with a second stint at training. Once I stopped that, there was never any trainer other than Denis we were going to go back to.

How did you find training when you had no previous industry experience?

We always went racing, and Stephen did really well with our horses, but when the dispute happened we were left with about 15 horses and stables to cater for 69. We either had to sell the horses or one of us had to start training. We were learning on our feet, but similar to other businesses that we have, we always surrounded ourselves with good staff. Once you have good staff you’ll find your way through. We were surrounded by rapeseed two years in a row, and that’s partly why we had to give up the training in the end. We lost four or five months each year with it and turned horses into bleeders. Bills generally outweighed the prize money, but you can’t buy the pleasure that you get leading in a winner. That’s what it’s all about.

What’s been the highlight for you?

Having Sceptical for sure. The unfortunate thing was that his biggest wins came during Covid. When he won his listed race, James and Stephen weren’t allowed to go, and when he ran at Royal Ascot they couldn’t go either. I went over as a staff member for Denis. We built a bar up at the stables and called it Sceptical so he’ll never be forgotten.

James really loved him. It was nothing to do with how good he was, but his whole temperament. We were down there when he died as well which there are pros and cons to. Nobody likes to see it happening but equally I wouldn’t have liked for Denis to have to ring me and tell me about it. We were all there and we all had to deal with it, and for a good while nobody felt the same about going racing. We’d lost out on our one shot to compete at that higher level.

How do you cope with the ups and downs?

We’re level headed. We never trained for many people because I didn’t have it in me to make excuses if a horse ran poorly. We’d never have a cross word with Denis in regards to how a horse runs. We know he’s prepared them as best he can and, short of a bad ride, what else can he do? We’re in the game long enough to know that far more can go wrong than right. Nothing fazes us.

Now that I’m not training, racing doesn’t preoccupy everything. I have a younger family now and I get to see them growing up. When you’re training you can’t do that. You could be in Sligo on a Tuesday, Cork on a Wednesday. You can never predict what kind of life you’ll have, but now I know where I’m going. If there’s Dundalk on a Wednesday we’ll go, and it’s always on a Friday, so we can make plans as a family as well.

For some trainers, all they see is other trainers, and for the staff, all they see is other staff, there is no outside life to it. I’m definitely happier now. Smaller trainers have to go racing all of the time, and some of them are driving the horse, tacking up, leading up, washing them off all on their own. There’s no life to that, but it’s what they want to do. I didn’t have that itch when I was younger.